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An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,890

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo is an Author, Educator, and Philosopher of Science and Ethics. He discusses: family background; pivotal moments in early life; Dawkins and Krauss analogy; critical thinking’s influence on parenting; and Bentham, Mill, and the Harm Principle.

Keywords: author, Christopher DiCarlo, educator, philosopher.

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Author, Educator, Philosopher of Science and Ethics (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: My father, his parents were Italian immigrants. They came here. He was born in Canada. My mother was Alsatian.

So, it is a district in France and Germany, more Germany than France. My great-great grandfather got tired of the fighting between France and Germany. He changed his surname to Fox. I am a fifth generation Franco-Germanic on my mother’s side. That is my ancestry in Canada.

2. Jacobsen: Can you recall some pivotal moments and early influences in life? That is, the influence on the perspective of the world. The influence on directions taken in life.

DiCarlo: I remember talking to my mother once. I was born and baptized and raised a Catholic. I was an altar boy for five years. I thought, “Mom, what is heaven?” She said, “In heaven, you get everything that you want.”

I said, “You do?” She said, “Yea!” I was four. I said, “I don’t want to die until I’m 80. What will an 80-year-old man want with toys?” She said, “It doesn’t matter. If you want it, you will have them there.”

Later, in early high school, I said, “What do you think will happen to my friend, Danny Epstein, when he dies?” She said, “He will go to Hell.” I said, “He’s not Catholic. He is Jewish. He’s half-right.” She said, “That’s not enough.”

[Laughing]

Early, I realized that things were not quite right in the ‘supernatural’ realm. I hear about atrocities in the world, with crime, or someone having a seizure. Anything like that. I never had an individual tell me, “That person is behaving that way because their brain is somewhat different. It is operating somewhat differently. Under certain conditions, it will behave in that particular way.”

No one would ever explain that to me. It was “when that bad man did that, he chose to do that. He was violating the law and God and will go to Hell.” When Krauss says, “it’s child abuse,” in a way, that indoctrination is child abuse. You are not giving your child the more objective picture of human behaviour.

Therefore, you are withholding information from the child. Whether that or not, when I look back in life, I wish one single mentor/person said, “Hey, this is cool. This is all right. Bad things will happen, but here’s why bad things will happen and here is what you can do to help others that suffer. Here are ways to avoid that suffering for you.”

When I look back on my life, I wish I had a mentor. It was not until late high school when a neighbor was taking philosophy courses. He would have these conversations with me. It would influence me. I considered other things people said about the world that were different than my parents.

3. Jacobsen: When I reflect on your statements, from Professor Lawrence Krauss, on that child abuse, he takes that from Dr. Richard Dawkins, in writing and conversations. There is a deep, simple argument.

Dawkins presents a context. I paraphrase the analogy. You have three children: A, B, and C. You see a slide from a projector with children A, B, and C. A is a “Muslim Child.” B is a “Christian child.” C is a “Hindu child.”

When, in fact, you have a child of Muslims parents (A), child of Christian parents (B), and a child of Hindu parents (C). The point becomes clear with political philosophies applied to A, B, and C. Same context and second slide of the hypothetical projector. A is a Conservative child. B is a Liberal child. C is a Green Party child.

DiCarlo: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: In a way, when Dawkins has presented this idea to people, he argues by analogy in the sense of consciousness-raising with respect to 60s and 70s feminism to look at the way language is used in describing people, things, and relationships. There is a valid argument.

DiCarlo: For sure, when we decided to have kids, the greatest gift to give a child is critical thinking skills. The ability to think about all things carefully and to use your sense of logic and reason. The ability to discern through different types of information. I never stopped kids from wanting to pursue any religious or supernatural belief system.

Should one of them find joy or fellowship amongst others within a faith, we could talk about it. If it was more on the spectrum of cults including the Church of Scientology, I would press much harder in contrast to Buddhism.

It is a neat thing. I dabbled in it. I would not have much of an issue with it. If my son came home and said, “I’m a Scientologist,” we would probably have a serious discussion about this.”

4. Jacobsen: Regarding your own family history and personal life including having children, a related question: how does critical thinking influence parenting?

DiCarlo: It should be one of the cornerstones of parenting. You want to be compassionate, loving, and helpful. I want to guide in all those areas. If you do not have critical thinking to inform you in those areas, you are being misguided.

I am sure Jenny McCarthy loved her children. However, the irreparable damage done from her memes to others taking the false information is big. It is epistemically irresponsible.

Epistemic responsibility is the capacity to look at information and determine its reliability, sufficiency, consistency, and so on. These hallmarks of criteria that underlie the premise that support our conclusions.

When people do not do that, it can lead to damaging actions. They may have the best intentions for their children. The fact of the matter is “best intentions” are not enough. Critical thinking is what will allow parents with the best intentions to make more reliable decisions.

Now, with my critical thinking consulting business is a large outreach program, we are developing things. Instead of proselytizing about God or something, we teach educators critical thinking, which allows students to make their minds up.

It is how and not what to think. I do not have problems with different beliefs than mine. Unless, they create harm. That is a subjective, philosophically difficult, concept. One person’s benefit is another person’s harm.

However, telling people at ages things they cannot fathom or grasp the depths thereof, Jenny McCarthy’s pseudoscientific claim are harmful. In my book, I talk about the intersecting point.

Someone’s tolerance dims as another person’s harm increase in inverse proportion. Where they intersect, that is when someone is justified to say, “Time out here. Everything was fine. I have a high tolerance for your beliefs.”

You claim a God. To me, it is imaginary. It does not affect me. You pay your taxes. Your supernatural beliefs do not affect me. However, if I find out the supernatural beliefs harm, those lines intersect.

I do not have to tolerate that anymore, especially on behalf of those suffering under the belief system. I am tolerant of other belief systems different from mine. I can get along with any person of any faith, or non-faith. Let us face it, there are atheists out there that are assholes.

They can do horrible things for whatever reasons. They might not base it on faith. However, they might use different reasons. We are talking about the beliefs generating actions harmful to yourself, others, or another species.

5. Jacobsen: Jeremy Bentham founded Utilitarianism. John Stuart Mill developed it. He had the higher/lower pleasures, and The Harm Principle. Does this emphasis on the harm reflect aspects of Utilitarianism for you?

DiCarlo: For sure, the two most important ethical precepts for me: The Harm Principle and the Golden Rule. If you take them together, it is hard to get around it. If you take them separately, they do not always work well.

Paul Bernardo, serial killer, could say, “I am abiding by the Golden Rule. I want someone to stalk, drug, and murder me. I see nothing wrong with that!” However, if you put The Harm Principle in there, then you say, “You can’t get away with that loose-fitting approach.”

I am both a Consequentialist and a Deontologist. I am a mixed bag. I developed something called Relational Systemics, which goes further than Mill’s. It is looking at individuals as their systemic selves. Now, you are communicating through a means of a system of networking. It involves various systems, which need to function. You are living on the other side of the country

However, we need to interact with other systems. We are dependent on transportation, communication, legal, health, and so on. When I look at an individual, I see their systemic self.

There are natural and cultural systems. In terms of looking at human behaviour and trying to treat individuals fairly, if we are to value fairness as an aspect of ethical treatment, it behooves us to figure out an individual’s systemic self.

I use the natural and social sciences to the betterment of ethical systems. Many ethical philosophers sit at the desk. They think in abstruse and abstract terms. We need to marry ethics with science.

Some see that as the naturalistic fallacy. No, it is not. Hume said it is not the naturalistic fallacy if you fill in the is/ought with a lot of premises. That is what I am doing with these systems. Science must inform ethics.

If it does not, and if we exist in a vacuum, and if people get that we should not act ways and if they have their heads up an orifice, it is because they have not realized that for people to act according to specific rules, then they must be able to.

As Immanuel Kant said, “..is does not imply ought, but is implies can.” If somebody ought to do something, that means “can they do that?” If I ought not to murder, and if I have a grapefruit-sized tumor unbeknownst to me pressing against my amygdaloid system, limbic system, and if I murder that day, you say, “You ought not to murder.”

You have not determined the “is”. You have determined the systemic facts about me. I realize at the individual level. I do not want to murder. I do not want others to murder. The fact of the matter is life is not that simple.

We need to look at that as a complexity. We are an agglomeration of systems in this world whether we like it or not. Let us figure out the best way to think about systems interacting with themselves. So, when people cannot meet the rules within an ethical system of conduct or the law, what do we do with the rule breakers?

Dostoyevsky, right? Enter a societies’ prisons and that is how you judge them. How did they treat the rule breakers of that society? To be just and to be fair, we need to look at all the systems or at least the important nodes of those various systems to be fair to that person.

And to be fair to the next person. We need to set a precedent for that. So, the law I find, I am teaching a course in philosophy and punishment, and I am trying to get my students to think in terms of, what should we do with pedophiles? “Oh, pedophiles are horrible, they do horrible things to children.”

Yes, nobody is denying the consequences of their actions. Nobody denies that should not happen. Do you think they just sit around and say, “Jeez, I think I should have sex with kids? I’ve tried everything else, let us move on to kids.” It is not just a graduating perversion that a person has, of copulating with different persons and things and inanimate objects and then ending up with kids.

No, pedophiles are a product of their systemic selves. What are we going to do with them? If they cannot abide by the rules of society that we have put up, should we just take them out of the gene pool? Two behind the ear, right? Let us just take them out and try to eliminate their genes from the pool.

But now it is your brother, or your son, or your father. They were in all aspect’s good human beings before whatever neurochemistry in their brain caused them to favour those types of desires with those types of people where society says do not do that.

So, to be compassionate and fair to the polis at large, which we believe we have mandated ourselves to do, but we are not doing a very good job, what do we do for those people? We need to protect possible victims, no question about it. And this is what bothers some of my students. Was Burgess, right?

Was Anthony Burgess, right? Are we headed for a Clockwork Orange scenario? Where we are just going to fix the machinery. We are going to go in. First, we will ask the person, “Do you want to be a pedophile?” And if they say, “No, I hate causing pain to these children.”

Fine, “Do you wish to undergo a new therapy?” That we know will be developed; it is just a matter of decades. Where whatever “normal brains” are that do not desire to have sex with children and their brains that do desire to have sex with children, if we can fix the mechanisms within the neural transmission that causes the behaviours and the desires, then we take away the urges and we take away the crimes. Then we do not have victims.

We give the person their life back, and they no longer must hide from breaking these rules all the time. Of course, personal autonomy, if they do not wish to have this done, we still must let them know, we cannot have you running around society potentially harming children, so we are going to have to put you somewhere else.

We are going to have to keep an eye on you. We are going to have to institutionalize you. And that is the best treatment we can do. I know that is a perfect case scenario, perfect world case scenario. In some parts of the world, they are not going to have the finances to be able to do this.

Even in developed nations, we may not have the finances to do it. I am talking about a purely ideological level, what would the best-case scenario be in terms of treating people as just as possible, according to the golden rule and the no harm principles. That is one example.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Educator; Philosopher; Fellow, Society of Ontario Freethinkers; Board Advisor, Freethought TV; Advisory Fellow Center for Inquiry Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 15). An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One)Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,045

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: wisest person ever met; smartest people ever met; asking fundamental questions about society; the advancement and empowerment of women; donation of time, skills, professional networks, and so on, to Mensa Sweden; more men joining Mensa compared to women; positives and negatives of perfectionism; the potential of gifted and talented; smartest person in history; women being held back; writing tally; downsides and upsides to the bureaucracy; boundaries and possibilities of national Mensa groups; Behavioural Economics and Nikola Tesla at EMAG; and alternative IQ tests.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If you reflect on personal interactions and literature read in life, who seems like the wisest person ever met by you?

Monika Orski: A thought-provoking question, but also a difficult and rather personal one.

There are friends I have learned many things from, and wise people I have met in different situations, and also books that have made me think – mostly reading the classics, ranging from Dostoevsky to Austen, from de la Fayette to Kafka, and from Cervantes to Woolf. But to name one wisest person seems an impossible task.

2. Jacobsen: Also, in terms of IQ, which is non-trivial as a life factor, who are the smartest people ever met by you?

Orski: Well, I am not in the habit of asking people about their IQ scores.

I have met many very smart people through Mensa, of course. I also have friends who have never taken an intelligence test, but who are clearly among the smartest people I ever met.

3. Jacobsen: Do these moves towards more streamlined and siloed educational systems inadvertently prevent the development of minds capable of asking fundamental questions about society, querying about the undergirding structures running the nation?

Orski: No, I wouldn’t say they prevent it. They do, however, make the development of minds more difficult, in the meaning that these systems obstruct the systematic, guided search for broad knowledge. Anyone can read a text book on a subject they are not yet familiar with, but a curriculum set by people already proficient in the area will give a starting point that is much better.

I return to the assertion that an educational system that allows for the development of the multi-curious while it still has clear paths for those in search of training for at specific profession, would be advantageous to all students, as well as to society. But it’s not an easy thing to implement. It would take partially new structures, and a different approach to university education.

4. Jacobsen: With the rise of women, in some limited domains, we see the counter to it. The rise in hyper-masculine, whether religious or non-religious manifestations, and even authoritarian groups in much of the West with the intent, in some of their efforts, to retract and regress the progress seen in women’s rights for the last few decades. Does this seem to be the case to you? If so, does this concern you? If it does concern you, what can effectively work to continue the advancement and empowerment of women?

Orski: I agree, and see this as a very palpable concern. I does concern me, and people close to me.

First thing, in my view, is to recognize that the authoritarian groups we are talking about try to reverse progress in several areas. They are racist, anti gay rights, against religious freedom – and also against the human rights of women. All those aspects should be viewed together, and fiercely opposed.

When we see these groups growing, it’s easy to be discouraged. I certainly am, sometimes. But all in all, most things still advance over time. The very strength of the backlash proves the power of progress. Of course, it also proves that progress has to be fought for, over and over again. This fight is done by a continuous assertion of basic democratic and human rights, for all.

But there are also everyday ways to continue the empowerment of women. We are all brought up to assess identical behavior slightly differently when done by a man then when done by a woman. We can all try to counteract this in our own reactions. Learn to use the same words when we describe the actions of a woman as we use when describing identical actions of a man, and for example not call her “aggressive” where he is “confident”.

Thus, let it be part of everyday life, but also a very important part of everyday politics.

5. Jacobsen: In terms of the pursuits of the multi-talented and multi-curious, I appreciate the work and effort for decades to help the gifted and talented young. It has been a significant concern for a long time for me. It warms my heart to see the work of the various national Mensa groups. Honestly, the population still seems underserved. Same with the older gifted and talented, who could be mentors and wise counsel for some of the gifted and talented young. It seems as if a waste of human capital and human flourishing to not invest in them more. How can people donate time, skills, professional networks, or join Mensa Sweden?

Orski: To join Mensa Sweden, start by going to www.mensa.se to find information about and register for an admittance test. Or, if you are not in Sweden, start at www.mensa.org to find a link to the website of your national Mensa, and look for information there.

Other than that, there are several volunteer organizations, not directly related to Mensa, that help young people add more knowledge and skills – and more fun – to the things they learn in school. Look for them to volunteer time and skills, they always need it.

6. Jacobsen: Why do so many more men join Mensa compared to women? How does this phenomenon impact relationships, dating, marriage, and potential family life for the mensans?

Orski: I wish I knew why. The figures do differ for different national Mensas, but this fact only underscores that there seem to be cultural factors of different sorts. My guess would be that men, statistically, tend to think more of their own intelligence. There might also be a factor of risk aversion, that women are more inclined not to want to take a test unless they are sure to get a high score.

Another interesting fact is that while the membership of Mensa Sweden is only about 25% women, the group of volunteers is significantly closer to 50-50. Thus, it seems that women are less likely to want to join the society, but those who do seek membership are more likely to take active part once they have joined.

I don’t think the gender statistics within Mensa has any significant impact on the dating and family life of mensans in general. I know some couples who have met through Mensa, and others who joined together, but at the end of the day it’s simply another social context for people to meet a potential partner, fortunately not the only one.

7. Jacobsen: What are the positives and negatives of the “sometimes impossibly high standards” of the gifted and talented? 

Orski: Ambition is generally a good thing. So is the endeavour always to do a little better, get a little further. I also think that a will always to ask more of yourself than of anybody else, is a sign of being a sentient a sensible person.

There is a risk to it, too. The risk is that you try to overachieve in ways that push yourself beyond what is reasonable to expect of any human being with normal, human weaknesses. That is what I mean by the gifted sometimes having not only high standards for themselves, but impossibly high standards.

8. Jacobsen: How are the gifted and talented often left languishing or simply wasted as not only individuals with needs but also potential massive contributors to the flourishing of the nation?

Orski: I am still not convinced that they are. There are many ways to make a happy life for yourself and contribute to the society you are part of. While I am very much in favour of a schooling system that would recognize the needs of the gifted earlier, I would not say that the gifted and talented are often wasted. Which, of course, does not diminish the need to work to let more people explore their potential, and find paths to do so at earlier ages.

9. Jacobsen: Who seems like the smartest person in history to you, as a pervasively intelligent human being?

Orski: I could repeat the list of names from your question about geniuses in the history of Western Europe, and add some. Inventors like Cai Lun (if he did invent paper, as has been attributed to him), Leonardo da Vinci, Johannes Gutenberg. Writers like Sophocles, Murasaki Shikibu, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy. I could go on at length. But to put down only one name is an impossible task.

10. Jacobsen: Women remain more objectified than men. This ties into the evaluations of women not as complete persons with rights, responsibilities, wants, needs, and goals and dreams but as objects of beauty and admiration of physical characteristics. How does this cross-cultural phenomenon undermine women’s intellectual courage, capacity to pursue their dreams without undue and unfair criticism and setback not normally expected in – for example – the lives of most men, and lower their standards for themselves and, if heterosexual, the men in their lives too? Why would working on the reduction of this phenomena lead to more flourishing – eudaimonia – of women and a raising of standards for the men in their lives?

Orski: This is another aspect of being held back, in all sorts of ways. It is also among the things explored in the rich feminist literature, from “A Vindication of the Rights of Women” by Wollstonecraft, via “Le Deuxième Sexe” by de Beauvoir, and on to our days.

It is something that has to be worked at every day, in the everyday lives of all of us. As I already mentioned, we know that we assess identical behavior slightly differently depending on the gender of the person we interact with. I can get angry with myself when I notice that I expect a little more work, and a slightly higher quality of work, form women I work with than from a man in the same position. We all need to counteract this in ourselves.

Then, there are all the things that women are taught to take in stride, while no man is expected to accept them. The resent “me too” movement has made people more aware of this fact. I actually think that bringing up the everyday mostly-not-quite-harassment that basically every women is subject to at some point, has had even more of an impact than the loud and outrageous cases that, of course, should be handled by the judicial system.

And yes, I do agree that this will, step by step, lead to more flourishing of women and men alike.

11. Jacobsen: How many words do you write per day? How many days per week? When is there a break between writing?

Orski: Sometimes, when I sit down to write for an hour, the result is the draft of at short story of 5 pages. At other times, it’s a single paragraph. It all depends on the stage of that particular text. When I edit a longer text, as I do now with the upcoming book, I spend less time on new material. On the other hand, to go for a walk and than write a flash fiction short story can be a great way to free the brain of blockage when things do not come out right in the text I’m mainly working at.

As writing is not my primary work, it also depends on how much time and effort I need to spend on my consulting work, as well as the volunteer work I have taken on. But in general, if I do not write at all for a week or two, it is usually a sign that I have taken on to much to be able to relax, and I try to consider that a warning sign to be heeded.

12. Jacobsen: Are there bureaucratic downsides to a national and international Mensa leadership? What are the upsides, comparatively?

Orski: There are bureaucratic downsides to every organization. Not even Mensa has been able to come up with a complete remedy for this phenomenon.

From a national Mensa point of view, we have some rules set down by national and local traditions, and other by being part of an international organization. Mensa International business is always conducted in English, which adds a language barrier for all of us who are not in English-speaking countries. For example, we always have to keep an English translation of the bylaws of our national Mensa, and before the membership can vote on changing anything in the bylaws, the proposal has to be translated into English and reviewed at the international level.

But all in all, Mensa is not very bureaucratic, for being an international organization with around 150 000 members world wide. That is one of the upsides of an organization being run by members for members, with most of the work done by volunteers.

13. Jacobsen: What are boundaries and possibilities of national Mensa groups? What can and cannot be done? That is, what are the limits for the national groups or representative organizations?

Orski: In short, Mensa as an organization shall not express an opinion as being that of Mensa, take any political action, or have any ideological, philosophical, political or religious affiliation. Members can have all sorts of opinions and affiliations, of course, bur Mensa cannot.

As a national Mensa chapter, we keep to the purpose of Mensa:

“to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity; to encourage research in the nature, characteristics, and uses of intelligence; and to provide a stimulating intellectual and social environment for members.”

14. Jacobsen: What was most fascinating about Behavioural Economics and Nikola Tesla?

Orski: Both of those EMAG lectures were well prepared and well performed. Also, I learned new things, which is always a pleasure.

Behavioural Economics, with its mixture of well-researched psychology into more classic economic theory, is a highly interesting area. We probably all know we are not always strictly rational, but here is a way to measure and explain it.

The lecture on Nicola Tesla focused on the inventor Tesla’s work on energy sources, where he was very early to see the need for new, renewable and alternative energy sources. An interesting and quite modern topic for someone active in the 1920s and 1930s.

15. Jacobsen: There are alternative IQ tests for societies with very high IQ cutoffs. Some developed by qualified psychometricians, or at least those with experimental psychology and statistics backgrounds. Others are from intelligent people without these formal qualifications. What is the general perspective of the high-IQ community of these tests? What is the range of quality of them? What is the average of the quality of them? Has Mensa ever accepted them for membership? Have they ever been considered for qualification of membership?

Orski: The qualification definition, being among the 2%, is the same for Mensa all over the world. The tests accepted as evidence, however, can differ between national Mensas. This is the reason I do not really know the answer to this. There might be some such “very high-IQ” test created by a qualified psychometrician and accepted as evidence somewhere, although I am not currently aware of any such instance.

Mostly, those tests remain in the realm of puzzles. Some people really like doing them, and the creators usually get a certain amount of good reputation for providing them. However, it’s very hard to measure intelligence at levels where the number of possible test subjects is scarce. Thus, most of these test will probably remain nice puzzles, rather than actual tests.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 15). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four)Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,756

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Ryan Bellerose is a Métis Activist and Writer from Northern Alberta, and a Co-Founder of Calgary United with Israel (CUWI). He discusses: family background; personal heritage; the Israel-Palestine issue; myths around Indigenous land rights; status of some treaties; Metis and non-Indigenous populations working together; and land rights issues between Israel-Palestine and Indigenous-and-non-Indigenous Canada.

Keywords: activist, Calgary, Israel, Métis, Northern Alberta, Ryan Bellerose, writer.

An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One): Métis Activist; Writer; Co-Founder, Calgary United with Israel (CUWI)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background regarding geography, language, culture, and religion/irreligion?

Ryan Bellerose:  My family is Metis, we have our roots in the Red River area in Manitoba, just south of modern-day Winnipeg. We were forced to move west after the northwest rebellion to an area in what is now St. Albert, but were again forced to move north to what is now the Fort Vermillion area and the Paddle Prairie Metis Settlement in Northern Alberta.

We spoke mainly Cree and Michif and were mainly Roman Catholic with a mix of traditional Cree spirituality. My family was mostly pretty atheist as my Father and some of his brothers and sisters were in residential schools and had a strong dislike of organised religion because of that.

I grew up Catholic because my mother was a child of white settlers who farmed in the Rocky lane area and were French and Norwegian stock. They were very religious people. I left Catholicism after travelling to Israel a few years ago and realising that if I am trying to advocate for a cultural resurgence, I needed to follow my own path.

My Family was very traditional on both sides, I grew up hunting and fishing, and my father moved to a very remote place when I was a small child, so I spent half the year with him in the bush and half with my mother in town and eventually the city where she attended university. This gave me a firm grasp on what life was like on both sides of the Indigenous issue.

2. Jacobsen: How does a personal Metis heritage provide a foundation for knowledge about Indigenous rights issues, especially land claim issues?

Bellerose: It does not, without a strong family knowledge, and a personal desire to know and understand the Indigenous struggle, there is no real foundation. many Indigenous people are so involved in the day to day struggle to survive that they do not have a very good knowledge base let alone a strong grasp on the macro struggle for Indigenous rights.

That is why we have so many people who say things that are counterproductive but feel good. Instead of being focused on fixing the issues in our communities many have bought into the perpetual victimhood narrative of the left and rather than working on bringing everyone up, to a baseline, want to drag others down to create another lower bar.

3. Jacobsen: The Israel-Palestine issue continues to fan flames, not only between the two countries’ citizens but also internationally for a variety of reasons. What seems to make the most sense of the land claims issues from an Indigenous rights perspective? Why does this seem the most evidenced and substantive as a case? How does this argument relate to the Canadian context with Indigenous land rights claims?

Bellerose: Its actually a very simple issue at the core, either you believe that Indigenous people have the right to live in peace and worship the Creator in their own manner, speak their own language, and manifest their own cultural identity on their ancestral lands, with access to their sacred places and self-determination, or you do not.

If you support those things and you are a reader of history and understand the indicators of indigeneity, you support the Jewish people who are Indigenous to that specific land. This does not mean they have the right to forcibly remove anyone and they have not, but it does mean they have the right to be there on their ancestral lands protecting their sacred sites.

The false narrative of Arab Indigenous status is easily debunked, because Indigenous status is site-specific. For instance, I am Metis/Cree, you can call me an Indian or native Canadian, but I am not Indigenous to all of Canada I am Indigenous to the Red River area.

Just as an Englishman can be called European but his language and culture were developed mainly in what is now England, not Spain. Arabs are Indigenous to the Hejaz or the Arabian peninsula where their language and sacred places began and are located.

It relates because if we allow the argument that colonisers can become Indigenous through passage of time or through conquering of Indigenous people, and not through genesis of culture and coalescence of a people, then the same argument would apply here in a few more years and white Europeans would be Indigenous to Canada for the same reasons.

4. Jacobsen: What seems like the common myths around Indigenous land rights claims now, in this country? What truths dispel them?

Bellerose: The most common myths are that all land in Canada was surrendered under the treaty, that one was simply not true, there are many unceded lands in Canada where tribes were not even consulted and simply subsumed without even knowing.

Their leaders never signed anything. Another common myth is that we are all equal under the law, when in fact Indians who live on the reserve cannot own their own lands, do not have full ownership of their homes and in fact, are considered under the law to be wards of the crown.

I think the more damaging myths though are the “Indians don’t pay taxes” nonsense and “we pay for everything for Indians” myths. First off, the only Indians who do not pay taxes have to live and work on the reserve, which very, very few Indians do.

The money that pays for the entire industry to run comes from the transfer trust agreement which was an agreement by the government to put all resource money into a trust to be overseen by the government. That money has slowly been misused and access has never been openly granted to us.

5. Jacobsen: What are the current statuses of some of the more prominent treaties of the land of the Indians in Canada? What media coverage obscures the truths stated before? Do certain outlets not provide accurate coverage of half-truth coverage out of political and social convenience? If so, what ones? 

Bellerose: That is a complex question you must understand that out east most of the treaties are federal and with the crown, in BC the treaties are different. The biggest issue is not the treaty lands but the fact that there are so many areas that were unceded by the actual native people in the area.

Media coverage is generally poor because most media does not do much research and trends towards tabloidism rather than journalism.

6. Jacobsen: To extend a trite question, how can the Metis and non-Indigenous populations work together, toward more unified and common goals of integration in various domains? What will this take from the members of the communities and the leaders of those communities?

Bellerose: Working together can only come from a foundation of mutual respect and honesty which has not been the case. We are not just fighting stereotypes but actual paradigms those paradigms will be difficult to change.

7. Jacobsen: What seems like the areas where the Israel-Palestine issue does not overlap with, for example, the land rights and treaties issues between Canada and various Indigenous/Indian nations?

Bellerose: For beginners, in Canada, the Indigenous population is not the majority. We do not have the sheer numbers for a democracy to be anything more than a different kind of tyranny for us.

In Israel, the Jews are the majority and can assert themselves democratically to maintain their culture, language, and religion. In Canada, we cannot do that. Our goals must be modified, we need to argue for more participatory power in government, more actual power in those governments and for our traditions to be taught and respected.

Without that, our people will eventually be subsumed and assimilated. That was the original goal of the white government and has always been at the forefront of our minds when we deal with them.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Métis Activist; Writer; Co-Founder, Calgary United with Israel (CUWI).

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 15). An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One)Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,593

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: collaboration with other Mensa chapters; other chapters helpful in the development of Mensa Sweden; the trend towards streamlined education; sex differences and similarities in general intelligence; signifiers of giftedness; typical means by which the gifted are punished; the unprecedented flourishing of women; pitfalls and difficulties in a life of writing; and some of the activities, memorable dialogues, and decisions made through the EMAG.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How does collaboration work with the other Mensa chapters? What have been some of the collaborative projects worked on together?

Monika Orski: There is formal cooperation, to shape the rules that make Mensa chapters around the world all stay part of the federation. Then there is informal and semi-formal cooperation, mostly to create opportunities for members to meet.

Within Europe, there is a semi-formal cooperation around an annual common meeting, known as EMAG (European Mensa Annual Gathering). Formally, it is hosted by a different Mensa each year, but previous and future organizers cooperate closely for every event. I have attended every one since the start in 2008, and they have all been great fun. Also, I was the coordinator when we did one in Stockholm, in 2012.

Within the Nordics, we have a more recent common annual meeting, known as the Floating Mensans, as it is always a cruise between two of the countries. We have done two this far, had good success, and expect this meeting type to continue. We also cooperate to try and help create Mensa groups in neighbouring countries where Mensa is not yet present. In addition, I think all Nordic chairs are very happy about an annual chairs’ meeting, when we exchange experiences and best practices and offer each other support when needed.

2. Jacobsen: How have the other chapters been helpful in the development of Mensa Sweden?

Orski: The very first Mensa group in Sweden was founded in 1964 by a member of American Mensa, Jay Albrecht, who lived in Stockholm for a few years. Without that seed, who knows if we would have the thriving national group of today.

Then, there is always an exchange of ideas. For example, when Mensa Sweden had a large revision of our bylaws around 15 years ago, we got many good ideas from Mensa Norway, who had done a similar revision about a year earlier, but we also picked up some ideas from Mensa Hungary. More recently, we have been able to use experiences from Czech Mensa in discussions about paper publishing or e-publishing of our Mensa magazine, seen some interesting ideas from Australian Mensa regarding young members, etc. We are all part of an international organization, and that is among the key strengths of Mensa.

3. Jacobsen: Some individuals work to reduce the diversity of the possible programs for an individual student’s training. Some recent news items arose in the feed for me. With respect to the training and education earned in various disciplines including the typically higher-prestige and higher-paying jobs mentioned by you, what might shift the emphasis from the siloed education typified in some modern post-secondary education – for a teacher, a psychologist, or an engineer, and so on – to a  broader base? An education for someone with the more plural, life-long intellectual interests rather than the singular professional ones.

Orski: There seems to be a continued development towards more streamlined, and siloed, education. My guess is that it’s mostly driven by short-term economic reasons, but it can also be perceived as making it easier to find the right education for a student with a purpose to pursue a specific profession. It would certainly not be easy to shift the other way, into a broader base.

One step towards such a broader base would be to allow students to start out with two, or even three, parallel courses from start. Let the multi-talented, and the multi-curious, try out several paths without a clear-cut switch between them. Then, let them continue – one path or several – and add more learning, some of which can be from entirely different disciplines.

While I think the general tracks for education into specific jobs also needs to remain there for those who know that one of those tracks is what they want, it should also be made easy to put together the required parts of such a track from the multi-course track, for those who start out there and then want to be qualified for a certain profession. Even within the specific job educational tracks, there should be room for, and time for, the possibility to also take some courses in other disciplines.

Not an easy change, of course. But in the long run, it would benefit all students.

4. Jacobsen: In personal and experience and knowing the data better than me, what differences exist between girls and boys, men and women, with respect to general intelligence? What similarities exist between them too? Do these considerations influence the provisions of Mensa Sweden?

Orski: In short, as far as we know there are no such differences. At least, I have not heard of any serious research that showed such differences and could be repeated.

There are many theories regarding this topic, usually spread along with claims of ”natural differences” that any quick examination will disprove as things that have differed over time and differ between cultures. These assertions are usually made by people with a clear political agenda, and do not merit anything but the quick examination that disproves them.

As far as I know, there has actually been one scientific study that showed a small difference between men and women regarding the spread of intelligence. According to this study, while the average intelligence of men and women is the same, there is a small but measurable predominance of men in the extremes of intelligence – very low intelligence as well as very high. However, the study has been criticized for not having enough subjects at these extremes to be statistically significant, and no one has yet been able to recreate the results.

As I mentioned before, we do see a small but clear difference among those who take our admission test, in that women are more likely to “pass”, i.e. score among the top 2%. But there is absolutely no proof that this shows a general difference in intelligence. After all, only a very small portion of the population take our test, and among those who do there are many more men than women. It seems probable the difference in ”pass” percentage simply exposes a difference in how sure of their own high intelligence women and men need to be to go take the test.

5. Jacobsen: If someone is a layperson and has an inkling someone in their life is gifted, what non-professional observational clue would indicate the various levels of the giftedness of this person in their life? The signifiers, maybe not universal but probably indicative, of the person being gifted, highly gifted, even profoundly and exceptionally gifted.

Orski: The highly gifted usually display some combination of the following traits: thinks fast, asks many questions, quickly infers more information from what they are told, has many ideas, has multiple interests, has more than one profession, likes in-depth discussions, likes to learn new things, has a well-developed sense of humour, learns easily. Many are also high achievers, and set extremely high standards for themselves. Sometimes impossibly high standards, that they would not dream of setting for anyone else.

In children, you can add that they are usually early in many things. Read early, pass intellectual milestones early, develop an interest in world events and adult conversations early. They also tend to be easily bored, and can have some trouble in interactions with other children. Regardless of whether they find other children they like to spend time with, they also tend to like solitary activities.

None of those traits are universal, of course. But if you see several of them in someone, they are likely to be highly gifted.

6. Jacobsen: Regarding punitive educational philosophies and methodologies, what seems like the more typical forms of punishing the gifted for being gifted?

Orski: Holding them back, is my short answer. I know many stories of young children who, when they showed their teachers they had done all the exercises in their textbook, were told to ”do them over again”. As if there could be nothing more for them to learn. And of course, they often get explicitly told to hold back, and try and adjust to the average pace of their classmates.

7. Jacobsen: We watch the unique flourishing of women in most areas of education, especially in undergraduate education in the developed nations. Girls and young women continue to opt into the world of education. Boys and young men seem to opt out more now. Girls and young women had various ceilings imposed on them for a long time, especially in the world of education. Boys and young men did not have the ceilings. Now, though, they seem to have the problem of a motivational ceiling – of sorts – imposed on themselves. Why the gap in education attendance, completion, and performance between girls and boys, and young women and young men?

Orski: I doubt that anyone really has a good answer to this question. As you say, there seems to be sort of motivational ceiling, or motivational deficit. Formal education is considered less important, partially as an effect of the growing importance within our whole society of personal characteristics and certain sets of social skills, at the expense of knowledge. And areas considered less important are usually left to women.

We also need to remember that the exact same behaviour will be assessed differently, depending on whether the person doing it is male or female. We all learn this so early, it is almost impossible to fully counteract it in our own reactions, even when we are aware of it. For some reason, judgements of boys not making an effort to take in the education they are offered seem to be much more tolerant than they are of girls with the same behaviour.

Many boys and young men seem to expect to get good jobs and incomes without having to make any sort of effort. There is such a tendency among some girls and young women too, but it is much less common. At the other end of the spectrum, more boys seem to give up early, and expect nothing more than to gain a kind of respect from their peers by the ability to use their fists, or at worst, the ability to procure and use weapons. But as to why this is so? I have no answer.

8. Jacobsen: What are the pitfalls and main difficulties of a life in writing?

Orski: The first difficulty is to actually sit down and write the text. I have met many persons who say ”I would like to write a book”, but what they really mean is ”I would like to have written a book”. Most of them never even try, of course. I guess someone with very strong character and determination could write a book only driven by the wish to have written it, but most of us need to like the writing itself to do it.

To like writing means to like hours by yourself with your text. There are sometimes good hours of progress, but sometimes also very slow hours when things simply will not work out, until you tried tens of different ways to put your words down. The ensuing frustration and criticism of your own work go with the territory.

Then, there is the obvious difficulty of having it published and, most crucially, read. Today, self-publication is easy, but to get readers without a publishing house to help is very difficult. I would strongly recommend to try and get the help of old-fashioned publishing house publication. Even then, as I mentioned before, only a few writers can make a living out of their writing, especially if you work within a small linguistic region.

9. Jacobsen: What have been some of the activities and memorable dialogues and decisions made through the EMAG?

Orski: Over the years, there have been workshops on improv theatre, math, dancing, geocaching, Wikipedia, singing, martial arts, meditation, creative writing and many other topics. Among the lectures, the topics range from business to science and from art to language studies. To mention a few, this year in Belgrade in August, I heard very good lectures on Behavioural Economics and on Nikola Tesla. I also gave a lecture this year, on leading intelligent people, with a bias towards the challenges and joys of leading Mensa volunteers.

There is also a tourist program every year, a great opportunity to see a town you might not have visited otherwise. But the most important part are the mensans, old friends you see every year and new ones you meet for the first time. I have had very interesting conversations on climate change, EU politics, complex computer systems, health issues, data protection, dating life, education of gifted children, midnight sun, and how to mix a drink – just to mention a few from this year.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 8). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three)Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,553

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Susan Murabana is an Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder of the Travelling Telescope. She discusses: Galileo Galilei and Copernicus; dark matter and dark energy; the most common question from children for the Travelling Telescope; critical thinking for the young; Kenyan sociocultural barriers to the education of science; science’s epistemology; the privileged place of religion in Kenya; a unified front for science education in Africa; The Clergy Project; and United Church of Canada, and religious parents and children.

Keywords: astronomer, Rotarian, Susan Murabana, Travelling Telescope.

Interview with Susan Murabana: Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder, Travelling Telescope (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You mentioned Galileo Galilee as a personal hero to you. He has that famous phrase E pur si muove – “it still moves,” after his being imprisoned in his household even after they showed the people trying him the telescope and showing them… Was it Saturn’s moons? Or Jupiter’s moons?

There are other examples of that. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake partly for positing many other galaxies and stars and planets, but also because he rejected the Trinity and the Church was not too hot on that. Also, who was the geocentricism to heliocentrism?

Susan Murabana: Copernicus.

Jacobsen: Copernicus, I think it was in Copernicus’ texts; I think in his acknowledgments he had Aristophanes who had posited a long time ago, but did not necessarily have the scientific backing for the laws. So, we have this trend of considered basic facts that aren’t with further or future scientific discovery.

So, we go from as you noted early in the interview, from a geocentric or Earth-centric view to an helio-centered or sun-centered view of “the universe.” Then we go from a solar system to a galaxy that has 100, 200 million stars and then that many galaxies.

What is another idea that is widely accepted now that you think might go the way of geocentricism or things of that nature?

Murabana: Wow, I do not know what to say but to talk about, it is one of my good examples, the fact that we have the atom smasher and stuff like that. We thought the solar system was this big then we realized we belong to this galaxy. We are not even at the centre of the galaxy and there are many galaxies and billions of stars.

Now, maybe, there are more than one universe and stuff like that. I do not know how to answer your question. I would have to think about it.

2. Jacobsen: There is the big question about the nature of 96% of the universe, by which I mean dark matter and dark energy. What are they? Why are they hard to both detect and categorize in relevance to the other 4%? What we are made of, the ordinary matter that we are made of.

Murabana: The stuff we know and can account for and there is some we do not know. Let me think about it a bit longer.

3. Jacobsen: What is the most common question that children give to the Travelling Telescope team?

Murabana: At some point, the most common question is why Pluto is not a planet anymore.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] oh no.

Murabana: Obviously, with New Horizons, it is interesting to talk to them about it because there is a lot being discovered. What other question do they like asking? Yes, I think that’s one of the most common questions that comes across, about Pluto. I told you we do a song with the kids and we almost did a Pluto song. I think we came up with the lyrics for the song.

I feel like young kids identify with Pluto because Pluto is the smallest or was the smallest planet in our solar system until we reclassified it as a dwarf planet. That’s part of the reason they ask the question. Another question that comes up a lot is what a black hole is. That is another common question we get. I am sure there are others, but I cannot think of them right now.

Another question they ask is, “Have you ever been to space?” [Laughing] People confuse astronomy and astrology a lot. It feels like we’ve gone to schools and sometimes we are introduced as astrologists and we must explain to them what astrology is and that it is not astronomy. The most common I think I can remember is black holes, but one of the most common is why Pluto is no longer a planet. Why it was declassified?

4. Jacobsen: Your example of being assumed astrologers when you’re coming in as astronomers, recalls for me critical tinkling. It would be akin to inviting the “Travelling Chemistry,” let’s say, and then going to the classroom and being introduced as alchemists [Laughing].

In that sense, what is the importance of critical thinking especially at a young age?

Murabana: That’s a good question. I think it is important at a young age because the whole idea of trying to think and use the scientific approach as a way of getting solutions. Questioning and then experimenting and then deducing, coming up with a result. I think critical thinking is important at a young age.

5. Jacobsen: Within Kenya, what are some sociocultural barriers to the education of science? I am not sure if I asked that question already, but I think that’s important.

Murabana: Religion prevents it in my opinion. I feel that sometimes, a person’s economic status. Another thing is to try to encourage experiments with readily available materials. But sometimes, I get the feeling that because people belong in a certain area or kids are in a certain area feel they cannot do certain experiments because they do not have access to money or resources to get different materials. That influences it.

Another thing is knowledge. I do not know how to put it. Some are not quite used to computers. They shy off from that. They wouldn’t use computers because they do not feel confident. So, some activities we do are computer based. We could get rejection from certain groups of people because they do not feel confident.

With their teachers, we’ve gotten good reception. In some cases, we find it difficult. One of the most common questions for teachers is where we place the creation theory when we talk about.

It is like religion, not science. Sometimes it happens.

6. Jacobsen: In a way, it seems to come down to me to a different epistemology, a different way of knowing in other words. A supernaturalistic epistemology looks for things unseen. Science comes from natural philosophy, by which I mean science as a proper branch of philosophy, based in looking for natural causes through natural means.

Therefore, naturalism, naturalistic epistemology, which is science, will come up with natural answers and if you’re dealing with different epistemologies, you’ll come up with different answers. It happens that we live in the natural world insofar as that’s what natural science teaches us.

So, we come up with evolutionary theory, the table of elements, continental drift, plate tectonics, the big bang, and so on, rather than the world is 6,000-to-10,000-years-old based on Bishop James Ussher counting all the ages in the Bible. I can see that.

Murabana: Kenya is a religious society. A good number of Kenyans are either Muslims or Christians. Religion is a big thing in school as well. Most schools either push a lot of Christianity or Islam, so we do not want to go there and make the school feel that we are disrespectful of their beliefs. It is normally an uncomfortable situation, especially if the teacher is asking about the creation stories in the presence of kids.

It is a whole different topic, I guess. Sometimes, I feel an instance of social culture or obviously the other cultural interests. I cannot think of that right now. Some teachers are good in the sense that culturally, they collected traditional sky knowledge from the older generations and sometimes you get kids that are trying to go back to their parents or grandparents to try and collect traditional sky knowledge.

I guess to feel that connection of us with the sky. Maybe one day, we’ll get some scientific knowledge or scientific proof from what was traditionally done in connection to the sky. It is exciting.

7. Jacobsen: Based on what you’re saying, my interpretation, and I want you to correct me if I am wrong please, is in Kenya religion does have a privileged place.

If I am understanding you correctly, within Kenya, and within other countries, of course, religion has a privileged place in that the religious practitioners and teachers can give that education to kids based in a specific religious belief system whereas those that have an irreligious system of operating in the world, cannot. That, therefore, means a double standard.

Murabana: I feel that it is complicated in my view because they do learn science and that’s more education. We have an astronomer talking about the big bang theory and things like that and he lied to the classroom and that’s it. When you try to question it, all the other things come in and one of the main influences is religion.

I do not know if it is still taught in the classroom, but they still learn about astronomy and things like that. Teachers try to be as correct as possible and they are open to the Travelling Telescope team or when other experts come on board.

But sometimes religion and the creation theory come into play because these are two different theories trying to explain how we came into existence. Especially if we talk about how the Sun has existed all this time, or the Sun is a star and will grow old and die eventually. Things like that as part of questions about the creation theory and things like that.

It is interesting because as you say, science is about things that have been proven or are consistent. Religion is more personal, and it is hard to try and have arguments when it is on a personal level. Kenya is a religious country in the sense you have huge Christian and Muslim communities.

Some of the schools are built from funding from the Church or the Muslim community. We go to these schools and teach these kids and it is gone most of the time. We feel we’ve left an impact. On one or two occasions, we get those questions.

8. Jacobsen: Is there an overarching organization to unite either regions of the continent of Africa or all of them together? Are there associations among organizations? So, a collective?

Your own organization or others that come together to teach astronomy, science, all these things under one banner to make operations more effective and coherent across a larger range of activities and places?

Murabana: Africa now, we have the Office of Astronomy for Development, which is an international astronomy community office. The key thing is to do outreach everywhere in the world, but it is being helpful in Africa. We have that office based in South Africa and there are regional offices. One is in East Africa, one in West Africa, one in Southern Africa, and I do not know if there is one in North Africa but that’s the biggest body, which is such a huge resource for everyone.

I know quite several people across Africa who are doing outreach in astronomy using different organizations, but we are all able to meet or connect through the Office of Astronomy for Development. There are other organizations like Astronomer’s without Borders or Global Hands (?) and the Universe Awareness which are mostly global.

There is an African Astronomical Society which was created to connect astronomers across the continent. It is also difficult the do cross Africa. Movement from West Africa to East Africa is expensive, so coordinating our meetings for everyone is normally difficult. It hasn’t quite survived.

They also have the East African Astronomical Society, which has meetings almost every year. So, there are many different bodies. We all seem to communicate. This year, we went to Tanzania for an annual eclipse. We traveled there to try and do outreach, but we were able to meet up with the astronomers there. The outreach people from Universe Awareness. We joined them and were a big group. Having that connection is good globally, but especially within Africa.

Jacobsen: I think we have covered everything [Laughing]. I do not know if I have any other questions.

Murabana: Cool. It has been interesting talking to you.

Jacobsen: Thank you.

Murabana: I do not have all the answers and I probably drifted away but it is interesting, and you made me think about certain things differently or probably try to go back and think about certain things. It is being an interesting interview and I enjoyed it.

9. Jacobsen: Thank you much I appreciate that. It is mutual. There are other topics that come to mind. I want to be mindful of your time. There is a philosopher in the United States called Daniel Dennett from Tufts University.

He and this one woman got together. And they did this research project, and called it The Clergy Project. I was talking to her on the phone because she wanted to say, “Hi,” before we did the interview.

Basically, they have these ministers and pastors and priests and so on, who are still giving sermons and they do not believe anymore. They haven’t believed in a long time, but they are still giving sermons.

Murabana: There are some priests who do not believe in it anymore?

Jacobsen: They are atheists. Some of them.

Murabana: [Laughing] what? That’s interesting.

Jacobsen: One person did come out and, as you might predict, social and professional suicide. They lost everything. They were fired the day after. Their family. They did not talk to them, nothing. They lost everything, by coming out.

Murabana: Why?

Jacobsen: Because they came out as atheists.

Murabana: They said they were atheists and that was it?

Jacobsen: That was it. The person who said it confided in a colleague and that colleague told the higher-ups in the Church system.

Murabana: Is that in the US or…?

10. Jacobsen: …That was in the US, but I have talked to another woman. I did not know this. So, Toronto and Vancouver are the big cities in Canada. I am in Vancouver.

I was reading the Globe and Mail or the Toronto Star, and there is an article about the United Church of Canada, which is a liberal church. Probably the most liberal church, like almost nothing is literal in the text when reading it. It is more often about metaphor and life lessons through parable, tale, metaphor, analogy, and narratives.

Basically, going back to original Gospel readings, preaching love and forgiveness and neighborliness, not so bad, a proactive Golden Rule. Basically, you’re reading a text by John Stuart Mill.

This woman whose name is Minister Gretta Vosper. She came out as, I think, it was a deist and then came out as non-supernaturalistic, non-theist, and then recently she came out as an atheist.

Her congregation was totally cool with it. They did not care. But after that, recently in September the United Church of Canada has set up a review board based on complaints, not from the congregation, but from the higher ups that they have an atheist in their ranks. Who woulda thunk?

Basically, people have an issue with it. So, I talked to her in the middle of it and she is under a lot of pressure. She is part of that same Clergy Project. She is one of the few that are open. The others know that if they leave that, they lose everything.

In a lot of cases, that’s why I was bringing up the questions about religion having a privileged place because they have full access to kids. Richard Dawkins made this point where he compared it by analogy to the 60s and 70s women’s rights movement in the United States where it was consciousness raising, especially for men – changing the terminology.

Not “mankind” but “humankind,” things like that. One that he pointed out was by example. His example, and I am paraphrasing, is you look at a picture and see three children. In the newspaper, it will say, here is Mark, Taylor, and Tyler. Mark the Muslim child, Taylor the Christian child, and Tyler the Jewish child.

No one has any problem with that. Then he says, “Okay, let’s see if we do the same thing as with religion but we do it politically.” Same children, same picture, but here are 3 children Mark, Taylor, and Tyler.

Mark the Libertarian child, Taylor the Republican child, and Tyler Keynesian child, and it immediately becomes funny because children, for the most part, are too young to have read and considered a serious economic theory to have a standardized position on what economic theory works best.

Yet, we assume a child by being born in a household, a parent, usually a male head of the household – that’s how these things work generally – or both parents, to be the religion of the parents. I would apply this to irreligion as well: that, therefore, those children have those beliefs as well.

It would be akin to parents having a political view and then the children having that view. In Canada, we have that same thing where we have free access in providing the parents’ beliefs to the children.

You do not have a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish child. You have Christian, Muslim, or Jewish parents with a child or children with Jewish, Christian, or Muslim parents. That was a big consciousness raising moment for me. I think for others in a lot of cases too.

Murabana: That’s interesting.

Jacobsen: You mentioned heroes. We’ve talked about most things under or about the Sun. The only other things I’d probably ask are: who is a favourite philosopher? Do you have any recommended books? Those would probably be the last two.

Murabana: The Cosmos. I think that’s big. Favourite philosopher? I am not so much of a favourite person, I cannot figure that out [Laughing]. I struggle to think of favourites. But yes, Cosmos, good book.

I think Neil deGrasse Tyson and the remake of Cosmos is also good. When we show kids in schools, it is well done. He’s a good communicator. It is graphic in that sense. Every time I have an interview. I am asked a favourite something. I am not that person who has a favourite colour, favourite this, favourite that. I need to work on that.

Jacobsen: Thank you much for your time, I appreciate the interview.

Murabana: Thank you so much, I know it is been several emails and checking and everything. It is good, getting interviewed by someone in Canada. Thank you for the persistence and for giving me an audience.

Jacobsen: You’re welcome.

Murabana: So, have a good day.

11. Jacobsen: Okay, thank you much for your time, I appreciate all the good work.

Murabana: Thanks, bye, bye.

Jacobsen: Bye.

References

  1. Travelling Telescope. (2018). Travelling Telescope. Retrieved from http://www.travellingtelescope.co.uk/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Astronomer; Founder, Travelling Telescope; Rotarian.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 8). An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four)Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

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Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 1.A, Idea: The Kurds (Part One)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Indigenous Middle East

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,512

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw is a Manager of Culture Project. He discusses: religion and upbringing; ethics in the world; the forces of war; life in Germany and disappoints in life; the Culture Project and the Kurdish community; and final feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: Culture Project, Islam, Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw, Kurdish, Kurds, politics, religion.

An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Originally published in Culture Project.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did you grow up? Was religion a big part of life? How did you come to find the non-religious community?

Ismail Hamaamin Religion was at the beginning an important part of my life, because my father sent me to Quran – school when I was five years old. Before that time, he taught me the simple version of the Quran through memorizing some verses, so I learnt some Arabic before I went to primary school. 

I am Kurdish. For most Kurdish people, Arabic is the language of evil foreigners who came with their tanks and military bases into the middle of our cities. Of course, that was a general picture of who was representing an Arabic language in the Kurdish collective conscience.

I want you to remember that from the creation of Iraq after World War I in 1921 until now; Arabic language in the Kurdish collective memory is a language which represents not only Islam but also occupation and Arabization, and of course the language of genocide.

During my primary school time and even in the summer holiday, I learned the Quran, because my father wanted that. I saw all my friends playing in our ghetto, but I had to go to a special summer school for Quran and Arabic.

In the Summer of 1977, I was awarded a special Quran from the head of the “Big Mosque” in my city, Sulaymania. My father was proud of me. I remember he was so happy. He kept this Quran until his death.

From that time, I hated all religions, because the Mullahs who were teaching us Quran and Arabic, were brutal and harsh and they beat us because of a small mistake. Their method and communication skills were another side of barbarism.

As a child in primary school, I looked around me; I saw only killing and fear of those who speak Arabic, even when I was able to understand the verses of Quran in Arabic. I realized where all this violence came from.

There are more than 68 verses that talk about killing, burning, cutting of bodies of the people who do not want to convert to Islam. Many verses which legitimises rape and slavery. Those verses were horrible for us as a child, so we learned not to love God but to be afraid of him.

This fear for me was related with what happened on the ground because I saw what the God of Arabic language did to us. I saw one of our people, a man in 1975, naked and  he was bleeding from his entire body.

His body was tied to the tank, so they were stalking his body and they dragged his body on the streets, so that all the people in our street could see it.  The Iraqi army was punishing our people publicly to show us what would happen if we joined a Kurdish revolution in 1975. The Arabic language was present in my life through cruel Mullahs and soldiers, so that was the general picture.

In my childhood and until my teenage years, I was angry with my father for sending me to Quran school, but after many years I thanked my father for sending me to Quran school to learn Arabic, because there was an Arabization around and the process of Arabization was going one more step.

But the positive point in my story is, I could read and translate the Arabic cartoon magazine for my school mates; nobody wanted to fight with me or come across me because they would lose their position in our reading group. There wasn’t any cartoon magazine in Kurdish for us at that time.

But after 1978, the Iraqi government repelled the Kurdish language from the teaching programme: geography, biology, and so on, in the 1980’s under the pressure of demonstration in all Kurdish cities, the Kurdish language returned to the school programme, but there were very bad translations.

Let me remind you that after the division of Kurdistan each part was forced to live with Iraq, Syria as a new state, and so on; these happened after World War I.

All that happened after the Sykes–Picot Agreement in which we as Kurds were forced to be part of Iraq and Syria. Indeed, after the Sykes–Picot Agreement, which was officially known as the Asia Minor Agreement and was a secret 1916 agreement between the United Kingdom and France, our lives as Kurds were always forcible and bitter.

Of course, through Arabic translation, I discovered French and English literature. The cynical thing is that Arabic language also helped me to get out of Mosque and all religions.

If you don’t understand Arabic, you cannot recognize every detail in the Quran, so you will be blind like most non-Arabic speakers who cannot search for truth in Quran and in the history of Islam.

In 1980, I left Islam through the joint Marxist-Leninist Party of Kurdistan. Of course, it was difficult for my father in 1981 to hear from the parents of my friends that I am supporting the Marxist-Leninist groups.

Some of them were in the mountains fighting against the Baathist regime of Saddam and the underground organization was there in all cities in Kurdistan. The 80s was the period of revolutionary dreamers and the entire world was divided into two parts, or two fronts: one follows the capitalism of the West and another who supported socialism.

This wave grew from the 1968 revolution in Europe and had a deep influence on Middle East intellectualism in the 70s. It became a model and lifestyle of young people until the end of the 80s. I was one of those dreamers – a romantic, a middle-class revolutionary who dreamed of getting rid of mosques and churches and beginning a new life without god.

I remember I started to read Bertolt Brecht, Maxim Gorky, Lenin, Marx, Mao Tse Tung…etc. Of course, all those books were in Arabic but forbidden. If the Saddam regime’s secret police knew that you have such books, they put you in secret jail.

The house of God turned into the house of the enemy. Our community was accepting our Marxism-Leninism because we were defending Kurdistan against the Iraqi government. At that time, my father was sad because he noticed that I left the mosque.

2. Jacobsen: How do you view the world now? What seems best to explain the world in theory and practice? What ethic, for action in the world with others, seems to make the most sense to you?

Ismail Hamaamin: Ok, I am not quite certain I can give you a satisfactory answer, because I am working on issues like morality and ethics through the terms of In Der Welt Sein ( Being In The World).

Of course, from two points of view, I am trying to understand this world. Once from my entire 26-year life’s experiences under the dictatorship of Saddam regime in Iraq and another from my 25 years life’s experiences in Europe, and how I was subjected to different experiences, and faced different types of meaning of the world through experiencing two models of livelihood, the two different of modus vivendi.

Everything I wrote; novel, poems, essay, political articles, etc., are a kind of trying to understand myself as homo sapiens.  I use a word “homo sapiens” in terms of surviving a phase of my life, but also for another phase of developing myself from surviving homo sapiens to a cultivated creature, or a modern human being. I prefer the word “animalization” instead of the word “cultivation.”

The first thing about life is that I understand it under surviving; it is to keep safe as a physical creature, so everyone tries to keep their body and head safe. I remember our parents taught us that walls and trees have ears!

That means, that you do not dare to speak freely what you think, because there is someone who will report you and put you and your family in a horrible prison. I grew up with this art of living as homo sapiens who always lives under threat.

War lets us understand the meaning of the world better than someone who didn’t experience it. For example, when I moved to Germany, it was quite unfathomable for me to see people on this earth that don’t know even where Kurdistan or Iraq is? They don’t know what we are talking about?

Or they have no idea about all those killings, wars, genocide, around the world. I started to think about the morality of the world, but not only through philosophical ideas and essays, but through literature.  To discuss this problem I wrote my novel, “Over The Frontiers, Flapping Through The Lunar Forests.

I wrote it in the first-person narrator voice because there wasn’t any chance to write in third person narrator for me. The story was about Kurdish intellectuals in Ukraine who tried to cross the border illegally to Europe.

The protagonist faced the collapse of morality where he left and there is another collapse where he lives, so he discovered that the question of the morality of the world is like to be squeezing the homo sapiens between different cynical systems of the world.

The cynical reason is the question of morality behind all systems who rule this world. That is what my protagonist tried to understand. What are the differences between here and there?

I tried to explain morality through the term “surviving,” so I used the term homo sapiens instead of human being. We are still homo sapiens in terms of evolution like the ancients before us, so we try to survive; for this reason, we change our values according to our survival strategy.

I reckon that morality is a cynical process that we need to legalise our unsuccessful development to be part of the environment. Because until today’s time, we didn’t even try to move to be a part of nature to begin animalizing ourselves.

What I am trying exactly to say is that, we failed to animalize ourselves in the full meaning of animals as part of nature and as part of the globe; although, we pretend to be globalists or to live in a global system, but our surviving art of life is against our globe.

I see the cynical reason of the world through the hypocrisy of the term ‘morality.’ The hypocrisy is like that, for example, we are as modern human beings think – that we are enlightened with self-confidence – but, we live in false enlightened self-confidence.

We are a product of the modern world consuming more than we need, occupying more territories than we need for our entire life.

We think that we are a spark of the spectrum of enlightenment because we are living according to the Enlightenment’s modus vivendi, so we think that we are for humanity and solidarity and we love dogs and rabbits and trees, and we are fighting for a greener globe, but, we don’t care about our factories which are producing millions of weapons, barrels of chimerical powder.

We don’t care about our governments. We don’t care that they allowed arms manufacturers to sell the poison to a regime like the Saddam regime in the 80s. They tested it on the Kurdish population to see how it works. In terms of rationality, it was a successful weapon which killed in the year 1988   more then 5000 people in one night in only five minutes!

That was a good sell for everyone in the West! We are careless even about what happened to our neighbors, so we think that we are vegetarian, but we think like a carnivore.

To explain my view about the morality of the world and animalization, for example, look at the animals, bugs, birds, they are a part of nature and they don’t consume more than they need.

They don’t occupy more terrarium that they don’t need, so they are a part of developing of world and ecosystem of the globe, but we are as homo sapiens as modern’s creature are a hindrance to keep this globe green and we are hindrance of surviving our globes in the cosmos.

3. Jacobsen: Regarding the Kurdish community, the continual onslaught of war, murder, and repression continue right into the present from internal oppressors and external state actors. How have these forces and influences affected you?

Hamaamin I grew up in an abnormal situation. For this reason, I avoid any kind of uniformed person subconsciously.  My unconscious makes me believe that those uniformed men and women are there to take me to somewhere and make me disappear like a magician.

I know it is not real, but it is reflected in my behaviour, so I don’t argue with police in airports. I see some people do that. I will carry all my documents with me to avoid any kind of conflict.

For example, in 1994, the first three months when I arrived in Kiev, I rented a very nice flat. I had money and a visa for three months, and so there was nothing to worry about, especially since I was far away from the civil war in Kurdistan.

After one month of hiding myself from police in Istanbul, because my visa was expired, I paid police a $300 bribe. I bribed them to let me go to my hotel until I got a new visa. If they deported me to the Iraqi border, I would be a thirty-year-old corpse somewhere without a grave now. At least, I made it to Ukraine with a legal visa.

When I arrived Kiev, I said to myself, “At last, all those years are behind me.” I started to enjoy a new period of my life. The crazy city after the Soviet Union collapsed and the new craziness was everywhere. Everyone was dreaming of a new life after the Soviet Union, but they didn’t know what kind of life.

It was for me, as a novelist, like being in a Dionysian temple: vodka, dancing, sex, all that, even my physiognomy has extremely changed.  Regardless, I dreamt often that I was captured by Iraqi special forces and  they were about to shoot me. That was the beginning, for several years, of dreaming the same dream.

However, I studied psychology. I knew this was trauma. I knew how I could deal with it. Some nights, I dreamt that I am lying somewhere. I was dying. You cannot imagine my happiness when I was awoken from that horrible dream!

Even some time after all those years, when the dream was waking me, I started to get up from my bed, immediately and I looked around in my flat, only to be assured that I am in my flat in Germany.  I was happy to be alive, so I focused on the positive to get rid of my past in Iraq.

I am telling you that to give you a smooth picture of the influence of all these years of war. The killing of thousands of our people in Kurdistan. One time a friend of mine told me, “You are lucky because you can write about yourself, but I don’t know how I can get rid of my past.” Of course, we are lucky because we survived many wars and revolutions in Kurdistan.

We are in Europe. But what about the people in Kurdistan? They don’t have even time to look back at their past, because the present is worse than their past. During war you don’t think too much, you will be like homo sapiens who want to survive.

We are as Kurds have the feeling like what called “homo sacer” who were banned from Roman Empire.  “Homo sacer” may be killed by anybody without the killer being afraid to be judged! Your blood is enjoyable for everyone who enjoyed killing you, so the homo sacer fights for his bare life.

We are as a Kurd  until today this homo sacer and everyone, the world  watches  Turkey, Iran, and Iraq and how they kill our people. Nobody care about us; we are not this imaginary figure of Giorgio Agamben’s theory about homo sacer in ancient time. The fact is, we are here and real on the ground every single day!

4. Jacobsen: How was your life in Germany? Were there any major disappointments in your life?

Hamaamin: The strange thing about the experience of war is that you enjoy every second of your life – even the death is enjoyable. It will be a rest and peace from all those memories and ideas of the past. After 18 years in Germany, I left all that behind me and went back to Kurdistan.

I lost my children in Germany. I say I lost them because I couldn’t be a proper father and be with them every day and to give them a good night kiss. It was the time I divorced from my first wife.

It was the hardest time of my life, even  hareder than  the time of Saddam Hussein’s regime of terror, when I was politically active against the dictatorship. My children were my last homeland in this life and I lost them.

At the same time, I lost my beloved mother. I lost what I built in 18 years. My world as a Kurdish writer in exile didn’t match with the way of life with what my first Kurdish wife wanted to have. I left Germany and I started to find a new job as director of a Kurdish magazine.

5. Jacobsen: How do you hope the Kurdish community comes together? How might Culture Project, as an incubator and repository of Kurdish values and productions, help with this movement of memorializing and rebuilding the culture of the Kurds?

Hamaamin: We thought about Culture Project as a way to break the usual image of Kurds as victims or as a fighter or worse – as political figures! Even the Kurdish publication in English is gathering around political issues, but we have very nice art, music, literature, feminism, activism.

So, we decided to establish Culture Project in diaspora and in Kurdistan. Critical thinking, gender, and literature is a new way for new awareness out of the old clichés of the traditional politics of Kurdish political parties who until now belong to tribes’ or clans’ tradition and Islamic values, more than the value of gender equality and human rights.

We cannot be liberated without a new alternative culture, so we are trying to rebuild the culture according to the new values.

6. Jacobsen: Any final thoughts or feelings in conclusion?

Hamaamin: I appreciate your time and your patience with me.

7. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ismail.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Manager, Culture Project.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw [Online].September 2018; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 8). An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin HamalawRetrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw Indigenous Middle East. 1.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw.Indigenous Middle East. 1.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw.Indigenous Middle East. 1.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw, Indigenous Middle East, vol. 1.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw, Indigenous Middle East, vol. 1.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw.” Indigenous Middle East 1.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw [Internet]. (2018, September; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Indigenous Middle East 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Indigenous Middle East with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,391

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: books by Orski and their contents; the reason for the topics in the texts; membership of Mensa Sweden; demographics; Mensa groups associated with Mensa Sweden; provisions of Mensa Sweden for its members; average standard deviation IQ score of the membership; the relationship between Mensa at 2-sigma and other high-IQ groups at 3-sigma and 4-sigma; the identification, education, and utilization of the young gifted and talented population; programs in the advanced industrial economies; some informal education and practical life skills the gifted and talent should acquire if they wish to pursue a life in writing; and some prominent cases of when a known highly gifted person went wrong, e.g. antisocial, violent, and so on.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What have been the books written by you? What topics tend to be the focus for you?

Monika Orski: In this area, I am a typical mensan, in that my activity is diverse. This far I have published three books, each of them very different from the others.

My first book, in 2007, is an introduction to open source software. There was no such book in Swedish, and I saw a need for it, as part of my computer systems related consulting work.

The second book, in 2011, is a young adults novel. It tells a story of friendship, incipient romantic interests, and mental illness. When it was published, I often got the question whether it’s autobiographic. It is not.

The third and most recent book is a collection of short stories, published in 2017 but written over many years. The short stories are partially intertwined, with most of the main characters part of a Jewish family in Stockholm, Warsaw and Jerusalem. Again, I often get the question if it’s autobiographic. It is not, but of course I have used settings I am familiar with, and in part processed stories I have heard.

If things turn out according to plan, there will be a fourth book published next year, 2019. This time around I go back to nonfiction, for a book on leadership of the highly gifted, largely based on my Mensa experience.

2. Jacobsen: Also, why those topics for the texts?

Orski: Well, they are all topics that interest me. I always write something or other. Some texts reach publication, others do not. Writing is a hobby I find rewarding in itself, even when it does not produce tangible results.

I also look to what is currently topical in Swedish literature, as for the young adults book, and of course to what I know about, as in the nonfiction. All in all, there are many factors shaping the choice of topics, and I am aware that I am probably unaware of half of them. Like most writers, I would presume.

3. Jacobsen: Let us talk about the different functions and facets of Mensa Sweden: how many members? 

Orski: Around 7,000 members, and the number increases every year. With Sweden’s circa 10 million population, we are the national Mensa with the highest number of members per million inhabitants, which we are very proud of.

I also find it noteworthy that the only other national Mensa at a similar level of members per million is Mensa Finland. Since many years, we have a friendly competition with our neighbours for this first place. There are larger national groups, of course, but no other is even near the same numbers per million.

4. Jacobsen: What demographics remain a part of Mensa Sweden? 

Orski: Well, we do not really keep statistics of demographics regarding anything but age and gender. The average age of Swedish mensans is 36. We have around 25 % women, 74% men, 1% others / unknown gender.

As a side note, the success rate of candidates who take the admission test is slightly higher for women than for men. Not a large difference, but visible. Thus, if we could only persuade as many women as men to take the admission test, the gender balance would even out with time.

5. Jacobsen: What other Mensa groups frequently associated with Mensa Sweden?

Orski: All the national Mensa groups, currently around 50 of them, are associated under the realm of Mensa International. But there are also regional cooperations, and we are very happy about the close cooperation we have between the Nordics, i.e. the national Mensas of Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden.

6. Jacobsen: What does Mensa Sweden provide for its members?

Orski: Mensa is member-driven, and almost all work within the organization is done by volunteers. This means the most important service we provide are ways to meet other members, and decide what to do together. There are local meetings spread around Sweden, organized by members who simply announce a pub meeting, or book a lecturer and a room for the lecture, etc.

There are, of course, larger meetings organized by groups of volunteers and supervised by elected Mensa officers on the board. There is also a magazine published 8 times a year, by volunteer editors and with contributions from members.

Then there is the opportunity to help out as a volunteer in the Gifted Children Program I mentioned before, and many members see this as a key function. It is a very tangible way to contribute to one of the three stated purposes of Mensa: to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity, to encourage research in the nature, characteristics and uses of intelligence, and to promote stimulating intellectual and social opportunities for its members.

8. Jacobsen: What is the average standard deviation IQ score of the members?

Orski: The criteria to join Mensa is the same all over the world, to score among the highest 2% on a supervised intelligence test.

We prefer the use of percentile to IQ scores. To still answer the question about scores: Intelligence is normally distributed. Assuming a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15, a passing Mensa score is 131 or above.

9. Jacobsen: What is the relationship between Mensa at 2-sigma and other high-IQ groups at 3-sigma and 4-sigma?

Orski: In short, none. Mensa is by far the most well-established high-IQ group, and has no direct relationship to any other group.

Of course, there are members who also join other groups, like Intertel (1%) or Triple Nine (0.1%) or ISPE (0.1%). In my experience, those who do usually stay in Mensa too, and are more likely to continue their Mensa membership than members of any of the others.

10. Jacobsen: There seems to be a widespread loss of the gifted and talent for the benefit of society and the fulfillment and meaning, in their own lives. How would you recommend Sweden move forward in the identification, education, and utilization of the young gifted and talented population?

Orski: I’m not at all sure there is such a widespread loss. Of course, most of the gifted people I come across are members of Mensa, which means they are in the relatively small group that wants to join a high-IQ society. Among them, far from everyone has any sort of visibly intellectual career, but that doesn’t imply they cannot be happy with their life and benefit society.

That said, I still think that much can be gained if gifted children are identified and given an education proper to their needs. If schools learn to identify them early, they can be taught in slightly different ways, to cater to their intellectual conditions and needs. Most important, they should not be held back. It can make a significant difference just to allow a child to sit quietly and read about something s/he is interested in, instead of having to explicitly wait for their classmates to accomplish a task they themselves were able to do in a few minutes. Not only does it let them do something meaningful, it also gives them a feeling of being rewarded for having done the standard tasks, instead of being punished for completing them faster than others.

11. Jacobsen: What programs exist in advanced industrial economies for the gifted and talented that could easily be implemented in Sweden? 

Orski: There are probably many good programs I am not aware of. Then, every educational system has its problems. However, I think the schooling systems of France and Finland would probably be interesting to look to for hints, as both tend to produce good results.

12. Jacobsen: What gifted and talented programs would take the longest to establish in Sweden but would have the greatest long-term impact on the intellectual flourishing of the country?

Orski: In my view, the greatest long-term positive impact would be produced by a shift of focus in university education. Today, it is mostly about training students for specific professions. We have university education for teachers, psychologists, engineers etc – but to gain a broad education that spans over several subjects is hard, not in terms of the actual learning process but in terms of being able to put such an education together. The system is designed to streamline student throughput, not to let them explore several possible talents.

Gifted young people should be able to combine subjects more easily. If they are allowed to find new combinations, and follow their usual multiple talents, some of them will be eminent in fields that do not even exist yet. But that takes a shift in education as a whole, and especially a shift that would allow university students to still pursue a specific field, but also let them create new combinations for learning.

Also, there remains the basic imperative never to punish gifted youth for being gifted. It is not as easy as it sounds, as every educational system has to be mostly adapted for the average, for practical reasons. However, I think much can be accomplished by the general approach that no one should be held back.

13. Jacobsen: What are some informal education and practical life skills the gifted and talent should acquire if they wish to pursue a life in writing?

I will start with the things everyone who wants to pursue a life in writing should do: Read, read, write, read, write and then read some more. You need to be truly rooted in your language, you need to know about other literature in your field, and you also need to read classics to be able to relate to current writing, including your own. If you do not enjoy reading, writing is not the path for you. Also, writing is a craft. It takes practice.

The next thing is, remember that very few writers can actually live off their writing. This is especially true for all of us who work in small linguistic regions. Here, the gifted usually have an advantage. Most highly gifted people have multiple talents, and thus it is easier to pursue a “daytime job”, or another parallel career, as well as being a writer.

Another important practical thing is to find peers to exchange text analysis. Find other writers at about your own level, and form a group that will share text and help each other by criticism. It is important that you should not be in the habit of praise each other’s texts, but actually criticize. That is the way to learn, and also learn to pay more attention to the strengths and weaknesses of the text before you. This group should, ideally, contain writers from different walks of life and with different intellectual skills.

14. Jacobsen: What are some prominent cases of when a known highly gifted person went wrong, e.g. antisocial, violent, and so on?

Orski: My Internet search is no better than that of anybody else… It has been widely published that the “Unabomber” Ted Kaczynski is probably highly gifted. The same things are said about another terrorist, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Of course, I have no way to corroborate these claims.

High intelligence is no guarantee against mental illness. Neither is it a guarantee for high morals. Unfortunately, there is no sign that the highly intelligent don’t go wrong about as often – or as seldom – as those of average intelligence.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 1). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two)Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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